Yunus Ustaz Usman is a Kaduna-based  Senior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN). He is also the Chairman, Legal Committee and member of National Council on Privatisation.

In this exclusive interview with ABDULGAFAR ALABELEWE, the learned SAN condemned criticisms of  the Supreme Court, saying that, if not for the Supreme Court, former President Olusegun Obasanjo could have disintegrated Nigeria because of his personal quarrel with his deputy, Alhaji Atiku Abubakar.

On the eligibility of President Goodluck Jonathan to contest the 2015 Presidential election, Ustaz said, no President is permitted by law to stay in office beyond eight years. He said, even if Jonathan contests and wins  next year’s presidential poll, he would be removed by the Supreme Court in 2017, when he would have spent eight years in office.  Excerpts:

What is your take on the widespread belief  that the Nigerian Judiciary has ceased to be  the last hope of the  common man and  that justice is now for the highest bidder?

You see, many people have criticised the judiciary in terribly bad light of recent. I am not holding brief for the judiciary.  I have no brother or sister who is a judge, but let me tell you, when you compare the three arms of government, the judiciary, the executive and the Legislature, I personally believe that, it is only the judiciary that one can say has done well . I am not saying every Judge is perfect, that is not possible. Let me tell you, without the Supreme Court, Obasanjo could have disintegrated Nigeria because of his personal quarrel with Atiku Abubakar. So, if you  can fault  some other arms of the judiciary, definitely not  the Supreme Court.  I think it would be ungodly to criticise the Supreme Court. Without the Supreme Court, Nigeria would have since disintegrated because of the antics of our politicians.

Not all lower courts are bad though.  There is no state that doesn’t have at least 20 judges and, if one or two judges are found wanting out of 20, would you say that institution is bad? The  Chief Justice of Nigeria is doing everything she can to make sure that the judiciary regains it lost glory.

I think the bulk of the problem is from the legal profession. The attitude of lawyers no longer impresses me. You see a senior advocate being rude to the court, being rude to his colleague. You see a lawyer being rude to another lawyer, that is not what it used to be, that is not what prompted some of us to read law. Rotimi Williams was an arch  enemy of G.O.K Ajayi, but they never insulted each other in  court, but today, you see a senior advocate insulting another senior advocate  while you can make your point without being rude. So, I think the major problem is in the legal profession, not the judiciary.  You see lawyers being accused of corruption, you go to Abuja most lawyers are detained overnight for selling fake landed property and so on. Is it not disgraceful?

Now, which  arm of the judiciary  can we say is responsible for delay in the dispensation of justice?

When you talk of delay in the delivery of justice, people who are not lawyers don’t understand what it means. You see, sometimes, when you hurry into dispensing justice, you end up doing injustice. Let me give you an example, if two people have a case, one finishes his case and the other says look, I am not well, I need time or my witness is abroad and the Judge says, no! Justice delayed is justice denied and he closes the case, has he heard the other party? As long as unnecessary delay causes injustice, hurried justice too causes injustice. There has to be a balance between the two; don’t hurry justice and don’t unnecessarily delay justice. The moment you say, you are hurrying justice, you deny some other people from being heard and that ends up in the worst aspect of miscarriage of justice. The two have to be balanced. People just say justice delayed is justice denied, they don’t even know what it means. Do you know why God gave us two ears? It’s  because, if somebody said he slapped me to your left ear, you turn you right ear to the person whom he accused and hear what happened. That is what God did to Adam and Eve. God knew  Adam and Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit, he didn’t convict them, until he heard both of them.

Talking about indiscipline in the legal profession, how do we get the record straight?

It is the disciplinary committee of the bar that is responsible for that. But, one other thing I am saying is that, when a child misbehaves, you don’t take the hammer to kill the child, you try to correct him. So, in letting out judgement, I would beg the disciplinary committee to ensure that it is a sort of corrective measure  that is needed in trying to correct the system. When a lawyer openly defrauds a client, openly confiscates a client’s property, then of course, he needs not be a lawyer. But in minor cases, you don’t derobe him, because derobing a lawyer is like killing him.

Away from that. There has been this agitation for power to return to the North, considering the rotational presidency arrangement within the PDP. But while some say President Goodluck Jonathan has been sworn-in twice and cannot be sworn in for the third time, others argue that, he can only not be elected thrice and he has only been elected once. What is the position of the law?

Let me tell you, the position of the law as at today is that, nobody should spend more than eight years as a President. So, when you calculate that, anytime Jonathan spends eight years, of course he would be removed like the Supreme Court did to some governors, including the governor of my state. So, the advisers to Jonathan should be conscious of that. Do you know why we are having problem in this country? Nobody wants to obey the  law. That is just why we are having problems. So, it is not a question of power returning to the North or to the South: Do you know what Nigerians want? If a dog is there and that dog performs, satisfies everybody, the ordinary man doesn’t care who is there, whether you are a Christian or a Muslim or a pagan is irrelevant. It is  somebody who can bring food to their table, it is somebody who can make sure that the hospitals are equipped. It is somebody who can be there to ensure that the university campuses are not locked like primary schools. Nobody cares who is there, I don’t care who is there. It is not a question of power returning to the North or returning to the South, let the person who is there perform.

So, are you saying that, if by 2015, President Jonathan decides to contest and wins, by 2017 when he would have spent eight years he has to go?

Yes! He will go. He has to go, of course, automatically he will go. Let him not allow people to deceive him. I think the major problem he has is that he doesn’t have sincere advisers, everybody is just on his own. Because if he wins the 2015 election again, by 2017 he would have spent eight years and of course he would have to go. And this will continue. It happened in America in 1942, until they changed. It means, the next person will start from there, finish his own eight years mid-stream, another person will start from there like that, until the legislature is able to change it.

Now, do we say our existing law is faulty, for not carefully taking care of the kind of circumstance that led to the then Vice President Jonathan becoming President?

At all! You know we had this under one of the Presidents in United States.  I think in 1942 or so, when this happened. The President died mid-stream, mid-stream the Vice President took over . Mid-stream again, his own ended until the United State’s House of Representatives and Senate now amended the constitution and said look, if you succeed somebody mid-stream, when you finish his term, you don’t continue again, if not it will not end, it will be mid-stream, cut, mid-stream cut, mid-stream cut totally, but the problem we have is that, how many people are ready to tell Jonathan the truth? Maybe it’s because of the contract they get or they think they should be there permanently and so on. Jonathan should know that, any of his advisers who doesn’t tell him the truth is his arch enemy: Somebody who only tells you what you want to hear is your enemy. You cannot advance until you listen to your opponent. And then, that takes me to this issue now. Even though I am not a politician, I understand one of the parties is saying that, they should forestall the passage of 2014 budget and so on, are these people not dealing with ordinary Nigerians? Does Jonathan know anything? I think it is highly unpatriotic. I hope members of the National Assembly will not listen to them. If that happens, it means budget will not pass, nothing will happen. If the ministers and those who are being screened are not appointed, are we not retrogressing? Is it Jonathan who is retrogressing? Does it affect Jonathan directly? When we do things, we should think of the effects on the generality of Nigerians and not on the person occupying that office.

That is why if we are not careful, the way we are going, people are now making people to have sympathy for Jonathan more. You don’t attack unnecessarily: I have no sympathy for Jonathan, Jonathan is not my friend, I am not a politician, but where somebody has his scores, give it to him, where he fails tell him.

Now, what is your advice to President Jonathan, as a Senior Advocate of Nigeria?

My sincere advice to Jonathan is that he has surrounded himself with sycophants, people who are  psychotic. People who are not ready to give him sincere advice because of personal reasons and it is unfortunate.

Sir, aside that, there has also been this call on the defecting PDP lawmakers  to APC to return or have their seats declared vacant. What is the position of the law on the matter?

I cannot say the position of the law now, because the case is in court. I am handling one aspect and until the court decides, if I say anything, both you and I would be jailed. So, wait for the court.

Also on the issue of Kaduna State House of Assembly where the aggrieved members said the Speaker was removed without the required number of votes and the new Speaker was sworn in while they had a case in court contesting it.

No, no, no, the case was not in court before the new one was sworn-in. The case did not go to court until the new Speaker was sworn in. It was after the new one was sworn in that they went to court. And that is how far I can also go on that, because the case is in court.

Okay sir. On a general note, what is your assessment of Nigerian politics since  1999?

It has been terribly unfortunate. A situation where politicians don’t learn from their past mistakes and misdeeds, and that is why we are in this problem today. Do you know we are not progressing? We are rather retrogressing politically and in everything. I agree, we have more money today, we have more resources today, but people suffer more today than in 1962 when I entered primary school. When I was in primary school, I had a desk to myself with a locker, key and padlock . But the sorry aspect of it is that, about two years ago, I went to my alma-mater, Ahmadu Bello University (ABU) and students were standing up to take lectures. Is it not a contradiction? You have more money, but people suffer more. And do you know  the reason? Corruption. Unless that is wiped out off our national psyche, we can never get anywhere. A single person will take the money that is meant for everybody.

The irony of it is that he will not use it to develop Nigeria or to even build companies and so on, so that people would be employed, but he would  take that money to Switzerland or somewhere that, even if he himself dies, his children cannot get that money back. One of my clients, the late Lord Hardly told me that, if Nigerian government officials withdraw all their money from  British banks, the British economy will collapse that day.

Is it not too unfortunate? And the irony of it is that this is money that you cannot use, even your children cannot use. You keep it and others are suffering and you think God will leave you? And let me tell you, if you use public money to train your children, God Almighty will destroy those children in your presence.

That is why you can hardly see the children of all these you call big people who are anything today. It is because of the money they used in training them. You see, people don’t reason, you can’t go away with public money. It is not possible.

Tell me any former governor or president whose child is anything or to whom you can go and he will call his child and say, this is my child. That is because of the money they used in training them.

So, how do we get back on track sir?

How to get back is to first of all pray. Let me tell you, I had a dream. I’m telling you, between me and my God. I had a dream and I had a man’s voice, saying God is angry with Nigeria and that three things will happen. I don’t know what those three things are.

-Sun